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Topic: a/c compressor won't come on

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a/c compressor won't come on (1/9)
 8/8/04 2:38pm
Mickey
Former Member

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Cincinnati, OH - USA

Vette(s):
70 Coupe 350/350 4 spd


Joined: 1/25/2004
Posts: 39

I and trying to get the A/C working on my 1970. I took it to an guy older guy that only works on A/C (very good reputation) and he identified two problems. One, there is a blockage of some kind in the system which is preventing the system from working. Two, the compressor will not kick in as it should even though the system was charged. He said it is some kind of electrical problem. When he "hot wires" the compressor it works fine. HE said it is not the "low refrigerant" shut off.
My questions are what could be causing the blockage? Wwhat electrical components should I check to get the compressor to kick in.
Some clues- The high speed fan relay is working (I swapped it with another Vette and it worked fine on that car) but the fan will not run on high speed. Also, when he tried to recover the R-12, he could only recover it from the low side. He could not recover it from the high pressure side.
The car has 70M original miles on it and the A/c system seems to be origina as well.

Unfortunately, since parts are not readily available at the local parts shop, he will not go any further to get the system working.

HELP!! |headscratch|

SOME NEW INFO-
I found that the 30A fuse was bad so I replaced it and now the high speed fan works and the compressor comes on. The A/C is not blowing "cold" but I do see refridgerant moving through the sight glass on the drier. ALso, one of the main lines is now hot. Since there is visible flow in the sight glass does this mean that the system is working properly-just needs a re-charge- or might there still be a blockage?

Thanks for everyone's response!!
Mickey

|UPDATED|8/9/2004 5:17:56 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
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a/c compressor won't come on (2/9)
 8/8/04 10:23pm
anips
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sonoma, CA - USA

Vette(s):
72 LT-1 AC coupe,69 l-36 coupe


Joined: 8/9/2002
Posts: 784

This is a question for ken, but my guess is for the blockage I would look at the dryer-reciever, its a filter-dehydrator, the elec. problem I would check the 30amp fuse holder tied to the horn relay at the left fender, the AC fuse at the fuse box, and check the AC on-off switch on your heater control panel,its a slide contact type switch on the bottom left on the panel,that switch is still available or try to clean the contacts,I had te same trouble with my AC, sometimes it would come on sometimes not, it was the AC switch under the panel, as for the blower motor,I think its the fan switch on the top of the panel,check to see if it works in a different mode, if it doesn't its the fan switch, when working around the horn relay DO NOT ground the horn relay,there are fusable links tied to it and grounding will blow the links

|UPDATED|8/8/2004 10:23:07 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
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a/c compressor won't come on (3/9)
 8/8/04 2:53pm
Gunslinger
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Frederick, MD - USA

Vette(s):
1969 convertible L71 427/435 4-speed black interior


Joined: 9/8/2003
Posts: 3398

Be real careful if you do have a blockage in your a/c system. In a car I used to own the expansion valve became blocked and while driving, the high side hose exploded completely off the compressor when the pressure built too high. It made quite a mess under the hood with shredded insulation and a/c oil covering everything.

Get it fixed quick if you want to use your a/c.
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a/c compressor won't come on (4/9)
 8/8/04 7:03pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3236

 Mickey said:
The car has 70M original miles on it and the A/c system seems to be origina as well.
 


I hope you mean 70k... 70M is a lot of miles.. youve been busy.. |biggrin|
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a/c compressor won't come on (5/9)
 8/8/04 9:28pm
anips
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sonoma, CA - USA

Vette(s):
72 LT-1 AC coupe,69 l-36 coupe


Joined: 8/9/2002
Posts: 784

Thermostatic Expansion Valve.." the valve consists primarily of the power element, body, autuating pins, seat and orifice,at the high pressure liquid inlet is a fine mesh screen which prevents dirt, filings or other forign matter from entering the valve oritice"....GM service manual....Well there's two places where there might be blockage, the dryer-reciever screen sack element and expansion valve, sounds like the compressor is trying to self distruct
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a/c compressor won't come on (6/9)
 8/9/04 8:41am
kstyerLifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

Vette(s):
1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!


Joined: 12/2/2003
Posts: 6424

Here's a short one. Get comfortable.

Finding the fuse was the first step. Without going into a long ditail of the wiring, you can see that was the problem there. I agree that the low side cutoff is not the problem. In the 70 you have a thermo limiting fuse. It's a three connector samll plastic box. When the pressure is low, the limiter blows, and the compressor will not run again until the limiter is replaced. I used to have a spare supply of these in my tool box. But your compressor runs, so that is not the issue.

He is correct that parts are not readily available. But they are available. Most of the suspect components are in the VIR (Valves In Receiver) assembly. The VIR is located in your right front fender, behind the wheel well. Not easy to work on due to it's location.

The VIR contains the dryer, sight glass, expansion valve, Pilot Operated Absolute (POA) valve, filter screen, all the freon control components. Freon goes from the compressor to the condenser, to the VIR high side, to the evaporator in the dash, back to the VIR low side, and returns to the compressor.

The A6 compressor we have in many of our C3s, including yours (and mine) is almost bullit proof. Almost. It's perhaps the best compressor ever built. The fact it kicks on and you can see freon flow is a positive. The fact that one of your hoses gets hot is another positive. That means there is a lot of pressure in the line. So we know the compressor is working.

Freon is interesting stuff. In a flowing state, it's temperature closely relates to it's pressure. This is by no means completely accurate, but the general rule of thumb that does work and in reality works very well, is that one pound of pressure will be one degree in a working system. This is to say 100 PSI is about 100 degrees F. 225 PSI is about 225 degrees F. Again not exact, but fairly accurate. In some ranges its exact. That why your line gets hot. There is flowing pressure.

This also means you system is mostly blocked, not completely. Other wise you would not see freon flow, and you would not have a hot line. The temp would not go up unless there was flow. Granted, there is some flow just filling the line up to pressure, but the high side pressuere drops to low at the VIR, and that's where your sight glass is, unless you have two of them. A few do.

When the pressure drops from high to low at the thermo expansion valve, the temperature drops and the pressure drops. The expansion valve does this. Any restriction will do this as well. So your blockage is at the point where the temp drops.

Follow the hot line with you hands until you get to the point where the temp drops. Check all the lines. When the temp drops, you found the point of your restriction.

It will probably be in the VIR assembly. Hoses and other components can clog, but that's usually from the system decomposing from the inside out. You could have a clog in the evaporator in the dash, but not as likely. The condenser in front of the radiator is not clogged or you would not see the freon flow in the sight glass, and the line get hot.

Any component can decompose from acid in the system. Acid is a result of moisture mixing with freon. Moisture is the killer. The acid can destory anything. But if your system still has a fair amount of pressure, there is probably no moisture, and no or little acid. IF the system was very low, moisture is likely.

Due to the fact the system has not been used for a while, my guess is the components in the VIR have stuck. Again, you can tell this by temp drop. If only the line from the condenser to the VIR is hot, the thermo expansion valve is the likely culprit. If the line from the VIR to the dash, and back to the VIR is hot, the POA valve or screen is the culprit. If you feel a drastic temp change in a hose, there is the clog, and look for deteriotation of the system due to acid. You could have the compressor deteriote from wear, lack of oil, or acid, but yours works so we are not looking there. If you open the system and finds bits of metal, replace the compressor. I don't expect this.

All of the oil in the system circulates with the freon. No freon circulation, no oil circulation. So an unused system does not oil the VIR valves. I suspect long disuse in a dry condition have caused the valves to stick.

The VIR can be removed from the car and serviced. The valves and desicant, the screen, can all be serviced (replaced). While is is possible to do in the car, as hard as it is to remove the VIR assy, it's easier to remove it and service it than it is to do it in the car. You have to half remove it to service it anyway. You may want to just replace the VIR assy as a reman or new unit. Then all you need to do if make sure the system is clean, install the VIR, and charge it with freon.

You may want to look at some of the Corvette suppliers. They have an update unit to replace the VIR, and convert the system into the newer style fixed orifice and accumulator system. This works well, and has less to go wrong in the future. You use the same compressor. If you want, you could even change over to R134a refigerant at this time. That will slightly reduce the out put of the car, but it will still be cold enought to do a good job. Sooner or later we won't be able to get freon (R-12). I'm a long way from that point, but I will do this to my car when I get there. You don't want to do this if you are keeping everything original.

If you do decide to switch to R134a, dont' flush the lines. Just blow them out. The 134a particle is smaller than the R-12 particle. It can leak through a prefectly good R-12 hose or seal. The old coating inside the lines and seals will stop the leakage. You can also purchase stop leak for 134a that works quite well.


So how does A/C work? First you must remember heat and temp are two different things. Just like gallons and temp in water. Also remember we cannot create cold, we can only remove heat.

The compressor compresses freon to a high pressure gas. Keep in mind this rasised the temp a lot. The hot gas goes to the condenser, and is condensed to a hot liquid. The pressure remains the same, but due to the air flow over the condensor, the hot surface gives up a lot of heat volume. This causes the gas to turn to liquid. The high pressure hot liquid go to the designed restriction. This is the thermo expansion valve, or orifice. At this point, the restriction causing the pressure to drop, which also drops the temp. It's now around 30 to 40 degrees, depending on the system, and about 30 to 40 psi.
This cold low pressure liquid goes to the evaporator inside the dash, where hot air from inside the car blows across it. Due to the fact it's cold, it absorbes heat. By absorbing the heat, the air passing through to the inside of the car becomes cold. When the freon absorbs heat, it expands (evaporates) back into a gas. Remember the properties of freon. It's still cold temp. The cold gas goes back to the compressor, where it is pumped to a high pressure, and high temp, containing lots of heat it absorbed in the car. It is now again a hot gas that hits the condenser, looses it's heat, turn to a liquid, and around again.

How do you get moisture and acid out of the system? Evacuate the system, which is putting a vacuum on it. This drops the pressure, makes the water evaporate, turn to a gas, and gets sucked out of the sytem. You need a good vacuum pump for A/C to do this.

Neat huh? It works well.

Let me know what you find and I'll help out as much as I can.
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a/c compressor won't come on (7/9)
 8/9/04 12:57pm
Mickey
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Cincinnati, OH - USA

Vette(s):
70 Coupe 350/350 4 spd


Joined: 1/25/2004
Posts: 39

Ken,
Thanks for the info. A few things-
-I believe that only 1973-1977 Corvettes use the VIR valve. So, fortunately I do not have to deal with that.
-The flow of my 1970 is from the compressor to the condenser to the drier. The drier is a simple canister with the sight glass. This sight glass is where I cold view that the freon was flowing. The drier is mounted next to the condenser under the right front headlight. From the drier it goes into the expansion valve and then into the evaporator core. When it exits the evaporator it goes into the POA valve assembly and back to the compressor.

I just started the car to trace the hot lines. The car started, I turned on the A/C, the compressor kicked in and the car stalled (not warmed up). When I restarted the car, the compressor would not come on. Both the 30A and the 25A fuses are fine. I know that it had minimal freon in it because the A/C guy told me he could not re-claim ~1 lb. of the freon he put in. Yesterday we had the compressor running for about 10 minutes.

Anyway, given this info, what do you think is the problem? Still a blockage? Where is the thermo limiter fuse you described located?

Thanks for your help.
Mickey
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a/c compressor won't come on (8/9)
 8/9/04 10:40pm
anips
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sonoma, CA - USA

Vette(s):
72 LT-1 AC coupe,69 l-36 coupe


Joined: 8/9/2002
Posts: 784

I think the AC on 68-72 are just about all the same, go to the front of the compressor, follow the green power wire to the thermal fuse harness, on my 72 there are two green and one black wire, the harness is a push on-off affair where the thin aprox. 1x3/4" black plastic box shaped fuse pushes on and off, it should be located at the near top-front of the heater-AC box inspect the fuse to see if you have bubbeled burnt plastic that might indicate a blow fuse....like I said before, it might be the AC control switch located under the heater control panel, try rolling the thumb wheel in out of the AC mode and see if the compressor kicks in

|UPDATED|8/9/2004 10:40:42 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
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a/c compressor won't come on (9/9)
 8/10/04 6:36am
kstyerLifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

Vette(s):
1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!


Joined: 12/2/2003
Posts: 6424

Yes, that will find the limiter fuse. You can check the other two wires on the limiter. If one becomes hot when you turn the a/c on, all the switches etc are working. If not, check for power supply from the a/c switch.

With only one pound in the system, it could have very easily blown the thermo limiter. That's not really enough to tell what is going on. It's good for a leak check, but not a performance check. Many newer cars can be somewhat performance checkes, just for basic function not performance, with one pound. But they hold only 2 pounds or so. All of the older cars hold much more. Up to 4 pounds. I don't know the volume of our cars off hand. But the thermo limiter SHOULD blow when it's that low.

The reason for blowing is when it's very low on freon, it does not circulate the oil in the system, and can cause damage. So the limiter stops it.

A pre VIR system works exactly the same way as a VIR system. It just much easier to work on. You can do everything component check one at a time.

I would also look for a slow leak.
You may find once you get some more freon in there, and the limiter or power supply is good, that there may not be another problem. One pound is just not enough to tell.
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